Ep. 24 : Music-Theory-Interviews: ZLEE(Part 1)

This is the 2nd Interview in my Music Theory Interview Series and it is with a good friend that goes by ZLEE.  We discuss Growing up, learning music as a kid, developing into a Songwriter and Composer, and many other music theory related topics. ZLEE offers advice on developing young people in music, how and why music theory is vital to every musician, the pros and cons of studying music theory, and he offers many anecdotes on the subject.  

If you want to check out the music of ZLEE go here:

https://linktr.ee/zleeband

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:32

That was a snippet from a tune called Crooked Atoms by my good friend and artist that goes by the name Zlee. Welcome back to the Harmonious Blacksmith, everybody. I am your host, Kevin Patrick Fleming, and today I have a wonderful music theory interview with an artist, and you are not gonna want to miss this. So without further ado, let's do the interview. So here we are on episode 24 of The Harmonious Blacksmith, and this is the second interview in my series of music theory interviews, and I have a very special guest with me today, an old friend, a fabulous musician, a fabulous composer, songwriter, and musician. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, Zlee.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31

Thanks. Thanks, man. That's like the nicest intro I think I've ever gotten.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39

They love you. You're an instant hit. So, Zlee, thank you so much for being on episode 24 of the Harmonious Blacks. How are we doing this morning?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48

I'm doing well, man. How are you doing? And thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:51

I'm doing great, man. Yeah, absolutely, man. I'm so glad that you're on the show. Thank you for the time, sir.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

I love your podcast. Longtime listener, first time caller.

SPEAKER_02: 2:02

Thank you. Thank you, my friend. That's so awesome. And look, just so y'all know a little bit of history, uh, me and my friend Z Lee here. By the way, that's Z-L-E-E. That's what he goes by. And he has been a friend of mine for many decades, actually. We went to high school together, and we have kept up over the years because not only the bond of friendship, absolutely yes, but also that friendship started through the bond of music. So, Zlee, I want to ask you a few questions to start. Let's start with this. Tell us your background. Where were you born? Where did you grow up? And what was life generally like growing up for you?

SPEAKER_00: 2:47

I have been in this area for my whole life. So, uh, like you said, you and I have been playing music together a very, very long time. I think I think I've known you for uh several decades at this point, and uh so I have been Just go ahead and date us. Yeah, I know. Um I I have been in the uh Atlanta area my whole life, um really out in the burbs, and um growing up in that area was like I think a very typical suburban, you know, life growing up. And uh I kind of uh started to get into music when I, you know, was when when really when grunge was coming out, you know, which is again dating us. So um music music. So the nineties? Right, early nineties. Uh so music was like a huge thing at that time and it grabbed me up, man. So so yeah, uh my family still lives in this area. Um my uh I'm just and I have like grown up, gotten married, had a family, stayed in this area, and am continuing to just obsess about music in my spare time.

SPEAKER_02: 3:59

And that's wonderful, and that's why you're here, and that's why we're interested in what you have to say. So, sounds like you're a southern boy through and through, born right here in the southern US, and that's wonderful. So let me tell let me ask you this. Um, what about what age did your interest in music get sparked? And if you can recall, what was it exactly that did that for you?

SPEAKER_00: 4:26

Yeah, man. I mean, you know, I I I have memories, vivid memories of being a kid and riding around in in the car with my parents, and my dad always listened to Motown. Um, my mom was always listening to whatever. I I can picture myself in the early 80s riding around in her cutlass. I don't know. I mean, does anyone know what a cutlass even is, right? Um I do. I had a I had a hand-me-down Oldsmobile cutlass.

SPEAKER_02: 4:53

You did.

SPEAKER_00: 4:54

Oh, that's amazing. I don't even think I knew that. Um so and you know, listening to uh all kinds of whatever country radio was on, or you know, uh easy listening from the late 70s. So, but but really I didn't develop my own musical interest and taste probably until early middle school in in our area. That's uh basically like sixth grade. So I was like 12 years old in 1991. There, I'm there, I'm really dating myself specifically, but yes, you do. You know, um, that is the year uh that Metallica released their black album and Guns N' Roses released Use Your Illusion one and two, right? And like all of all of us had those albums, but what also came out that year was was Pearl Jam and Nirvana and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, you know, Blood Sugar Sex Magic, right? And so yeah, I think for me, like that's really what grabbed my attention. I mean, I remember listening to Eddie Vedder and thinking, man, he doesn't sing like anyone I've ever heard before, but I really like it. Uh, and I wasn't sure why. And I feel like that's how a lot of music is for me. Like, you know, I like it and I'm not sure why. Start is how things get started.

SPEAKER_02: 6:03

So yeah, no, that's fantastic. You mentioned uh red hot chili peppers, blood sugar, sex magic. That brought me back to just remembering when I was mowing my parents' lawn in middle school and and having a Walkman on my hip with a cassette tape of Blood Sugar Sex Magic by Red Hot Chili Peppers. Absolutely. And just and that was just a phenomenal music. I mean, it still is, it's it stood the test of time, but we we were definitely influenced by that time period, um for sure. So at what point in your in your development or or just growing up in general, did you decide that you wanted to actually participate and play music?

SPEAKER_00: 6:46

Um, well, that's a great question. Um, so kind of the same guy who uh a friend of mine who lived in the neighborhood right across the street. He he had like older siblings, right? And I was the oldest child, so when you're the oldest or the only, you know, you don't and you don't have any influences to like hand you a cassette tape or a CD or send you the current streaming uh you know link or whatever. Right. Um it's hard to find stuff when you are uh when you're like in that situation. And so uh a friend of mine across the street, he had some of those older siblings and stuff, and basically uh is is one of the reasons I kind of got into like metal and punk early on and then grunge right there alongside it. Um and he actually was the same one who's like, dude, we should like learn to play instruments, and he really wanted to play bass. And uh I said, Well, I don't know how and I don't know anything about playing music, you know. I'm like again 12 or 13 years old. So I think I bought like a$75 drum set and uh began he and I began like drum and bass, torturing my family uh in the in our basement, you know, uh that summer, uh trying to play Credence Clearwater Revival songs. And uh but but yeah, I mean, pretty pretty early on. I mean, drums were to me something that happened um that that were easy to pick up, and I guess easy easy to pick up because I had like enough rhythm for it to organically happen. I feel like a lot of instruments are that way for you know, sometimes you just hand a kid an instrument and they're like, oh, this is terrible, but then they pick up another one and they're like, Oh, I love this. And I that was kind of how it was for me as a drummer.

SPEAKER_02: 8:33

So no, absolutely, and that's that's wonderful advice, um, especially since I know that you have two kids that are coming up now, and one of which I know is playing music, and another that may. Yeah, and you know, it's it's wonderful advice coming from a father and a family man to for other people in their families about what to do with their kids because parents definitely understand that music is important for children growing up and their development. Would you say that as well?

SPEAKER_00: 9:02

Oh man, absolutely. I mean, it's it's not only personally for me, it's given me so much pleasure, but also like relationships with other people. You know, uh my son has kind of followed my trajectory and that he does a lot of uh music production alone, you know, like in the bedroom, working on a digital audio workstation on his on his laptop, you know, and so we both do a lot of that stuff. But um all of all of his friends were in the band in high school, and I think that's one thing he kind of sort of realizes, man, I really wish that I had you know followed through playing the tuba in middle school and stuck with it in high school and like you know, had had uh some of those band uh moments that those guys had. But he was a good example of one where we didn't do a good job of being like, okay, so you don't love the tuba, let's find another instrument, you know. Um so I I think it's really important to not only like you know make music important as part of growing up, but also make sure that people feel confident learning how to express themselves on you know different instruments and finding one that really fits for them.

SPEAKER_02: 10:14

That is very well put, yeah, and that's wonderful advice for parents out there, especially parents who have really young kids and they really are interested in when to get them started and how to get them started and things like that. So that's those are fantastic nuggets. Thank you for that. Nice, thank you. Um so if y'all couldn't tell by now, based on Zlee's story there, he is a percussionist by nature, a drummer, but he also plays other instruments. So can you also tell our audience just what other instruments you play and you know maybe about your songwriting a little?

SPEAKER_00: 10:52

Yeah, man, absolutely. So, um, and and I should probably like couch all of this to say that I am very much an amateur musician, right? And so that's okay. We welcome that here.

SPEAKER_02: 11:05

We totally welcome that here.

SPEAKER_00: 11:07

If any of your listeners click on anything, the find my music, you will find that it is very straightforward, really simple. I I just like songs. And so for me, starting out as a drummer, um, and I I took very little formal instruction of of playing, but I had some, you know, great drums are one of those things where you can put on some headphones and bang along, and and and so much of it is feel, uh, very little theory, very heavy on on feel. Then you start to realize that your technique gaps are a real problem, right? But um I did enjoy just the feel of drumming and the feel of rhythm so much, but I got to a point um, you know, really after my son was born, um, that I was like, you know, I can't really bang loudly around the house anymore. And uh and and I just imagine that. Right. And I just had a little bit of an appetite for expressing uh I I've I mean, you know, you and I've played music together for a long time. I was not a principal songwriter in that band, you know, and or or ever. Um, but I've always had a lot of like song ideas, and so I did pick up enough guitar basically to play chords, right? Um, and and that was uh something that percolated really like slowly while my kids were really young. And um, but it was a a lot of that for me was just about learning how to write music, uh, how to uh craft song, take words and turn, you know, words and poetry, turn them into lyrics and and have that turn it convert into melody, you know, and and have that melody fit with chords. So I learned a lot about chord progressions and how melody can be uh an enhancement to chord progressions and vice versa. And then and then it's and then at some point, you know, in the last uh, I don't know, it's probably five or six years or so, I kind of realized that like, you know, piano is a different, it's like a different lens. It's like when you're playing uh a guitar and and you're thinking about chords and chord shapes through guitar, and then you sit down and and you play with piano chords and triads or whatever on a piano, and then you you it's so easy to invert a chord on a piano, you know. Yes, so that was so true, right? That was like a huge epiphany for me. So so long story short, long story short, I play uh a I play drums very confidently, although I would not say I'm anywhere near expert, but I I have a lot of muscle memory. Um I play enough rhythm acoustic guitar to be dangerous, and I play just a little bit of piano, a little even less of maybe mandolin, and at the end of the day, I just have channeled all of that into songwriting. So um, you're asking about my music, uh, so Z-L-E-E has become my kind of like uh my artist name for lack of a better word, but uh that uh the songwriting approach there is just purely about uh uh trying to capture feelings and ideas, you know? So I don't have like any particular any mission or any kind of like uh it's not like I'm writing lots of songs about love or lots of songs about you know other topics. It's and you'll you when you listen to any of the words, you're like, what exactly is he trying to say there? So I'm I'm probably a little effusive, but for me it is just this I'm like a middle-aged dude who really enjoys the hobby of pouring myself into making something, and and this has been a lot of fun for me. So that was a very long-winded answer to your question, but that's that's kind of how I got from there to here.

SPEAKER_02: 14:45

That's okay. We we love details and we accept them as such. No, that's wonderful. I'm always interested in, you know, the critical decisions about, you know, you were percussionist, it's fairly straightforward, you learn things by feel, eventually you pick up a guitar, you start learning some chording and understand, start to understand basic as we go into our discussion about how you use music theory here, you start to go into some basic components of understanding really naturally, kind of intrinsically, because you're like, Well, how does this work? And how does this work if I'm gonna play these instruments? And you know, I love what you said about piano. So, all my listeners out there, you you totally corroborated all the information I've been giving them so far in in previous episodes about how important it is to just understand a keyboard and how it works and how that filters into how you understand chording and like you said, chord inversions that get flipped. And of course, I've done a lot of episodes on that with bass lines and things. Yes, and um, so all of that was really good information. So let me let me flip to this now. At what point were your ears open to the fact that music theory was a thing and that it could help you in your endeavors? At what point did you discover music theory?

SPEAKER_00: 16:08

Um, you know, I I think especially kind of coming to music through something like punk rock and grunge, which was just not particularly musical in the classical sort of sense, I I didn't really pay any attention to it. And then by the time you and I were playing music together, uh, you know, I was but a a minimally capable drummer uh and not the only drummer in the band, right? And the so I I was probably the least musical of the group, so it's kind of interesting to think about that. Um, you know, I I don't think I understood anything about music theory before then. I I don't even think I'd I probably heard the words until not at all, man. And I mean when I think about uh you and our friend Drew uh listening to y'all talk about harmony, and and you would I remember a moment where you're like, uh no man, you're you're singing an octave. I need you to sing a fifth or something like that. And I'm I'm sitting there thinking to myself, what exactly is he talking about? So I I really think that, and I don't even think that was enough to make well, I mean, back then, frankly, you couldn't go home and Google it. I was about to say, I don't even think that was enough to make me Google it, but there was no Google. Yeah, just date us there again.

SPEAKER_02: 17:22

Just pigeon pigeonhole us as middle-aged old farts or whatever. I'm sorry, I keep doing that. That's fine. Yes, no, no, no. That's I I actually think it's funny. It's okay for everybody to know that's really because guess what? Wisdom cannot be fake. No people. That's true, man. We've you can take that or leave that. We've come by it honestly. Wisdom, we've come by it honestly. I love that. All right, so originally you were percussionist, and it just never really occurred to you. And so, what at what point did it occur to you like, hey, this is interesting and I want to understand it.

SPEAKER_00: 17:56

Yeah. I mean, you know, I mentioned like going from playing drums to playing guitar. And when I say playing guitar, I mean I'm like literally uh apps on my phone to show me chord shapes. Uh, you know. Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 18:10

And so And people do that. I mean, that's what that's what people are doing. It's either YouTube videos or that, or you know, they're looking at reels on certain social media sites where they just get snippets of stuff.

SPEAKER_00: 18:23

Well, and I it's I mean, it's everything's very democratized now, right? I mean, even songwriting and right making music, the fact that I can do it in my bedroom, it's like everybody has access to it. So kind of going back to your earlier thing about parenting and and having kids, it's like there are so many ways that a kid can get what they need musically to kind of make progress and momentum. And uh oftentimes as a parent, like the best thing you can do is really just continue to encourage it and make it a priority and show them things and so on. But um, anyway, music theory was not that's wonderful. Yeah, music theory was not something at all that was like on the radar for me, and then I knew uh as I started playing guitar, I really think the moment that it clicked for me that I needed to know the information was when I got a capo. And and you know that's interesting, right? And I'm like, oh, I'm playing in a different key now, I can play the exact same shapes. You mean I can play uh, you know, a C, a D minor, an E minor, a G, uh, and you know, like the basic cowboy chords that you can learn. Um, and now I can play all of those and I'm suddenly playing in the key of F, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 19:36

And um Yeah, and just to pause for a second because um for anybody in the audience out there that doesn't know what he's talking about with a capo, he's speaking of a tool that we use on really mainly guitar, but other fretted instruments where you're able to slap it on the neck and move it around in order to change the key of the instrument without having to change the shapes of the cord. Absolutely. So you can make the instrument higher, you can make it generally. I mean, a capo makes an instrument higher, obviously. So you put it on there and you raise the key to a different level.

SPEAKER_00: 20:14

Yeah, and I think that was it for me. And and that probably is why my appetite for like seeing the piano keyboard makes is similar because it's the same sort of it's like patterns, right? You know, the patterns that the sure the shapes and patterns you can make with your hands on a piano or a guitar, you move them up and down the fretboard or keyboard, and it translates generally very, very similarly. And so I think once I realized that that uh it's not that I felt like I had unlocked like the key to doing it, it was more so the realization that like, oh, I need to understand what I'm doing. Like, I don't, you know, I don't know that I'm actually by using this device, I don't know that I'm actually moving into the the the correct chords for the key that I think I'm playing in, right? And so really feeling that like appetite for like, oh, I may be actually doing something stupid, and or I'm or I would hear something and say, that doesn't quite sound right, but I can't say why. And it bothered me that I couldn't say why. And so I think that was really what what sort of lit the fire for me.

SPEAKER_02: 21:23

Oh wow, that's very interesting. So you definitely got to a point where you went down the rabbit hole of questions at some point when you started and really, I mean, I guess that started when you really started playing guitar. So, what so I was recently having a conversation with a young budding musician who has a lot of promise, and I was talking about you know how they learn and lessons and things like that. And one of my questions came in, well, are you learning any music theory? And he said, No, I just do everything by ear, I don't really need any music theory. So, my question to you would be What advice can you give to especially young folks like teenagers, early 20s, people who are just up and coming in music and are playing an instrument by ear? Um, what how can you can you give them advice on how important music theory is to their development of music or lack thereof? I mean, in other words, feel free to give your opinion on both sides. I mean that earnestly. In other words, hey, you can do this much without it, but you in the end, you're gonna want this much, you know. So however you want to frame that, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 22:36

I I love I I yeah, if I were if someone were to say that to me, I'm sitting here trying to decide how would I answer, how would I respond to that? Because really, my my path to doing what I do is um is really like organic, you know. Like I am one, I am not a scholar in any form. Um, and but two, I'm also not a real accomplished performer. And I know some people like Mr. Kevin Patrick Fleming, who is who are, you know, very, very proficient uh on both subjects, right?

SPEAKER_02: 23:15

And so um I am I I wear that amateur badge really uh really boldly, but I did and that again, we're you know, we're I I I want to pause to just point that out to my audience that that's part of the reason that you're on here because I want you all to know those Lee is one of my very best friends in the world, and he's also more talented than his humbleness will come off here. Um he also is uh he's a family man, he's a career man, and you know, he has those things that occupy his life, and music has really always been a passion. He was always gonna do it. Um it just does it in at you know on the side. And I I think most people that are gonna listen to my program are gonna be like that. So I think I think they're very interested in that. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 24:10

No, totally agree with you. And I was just gonna say, I mean, thank you for your kind words, obviously, but like I think um that's kind of where I was going just now was like the idea that um people who aren't scholars of this subject and who are just like curious, you know, and they're hungry and they're curious, that's really where I was. And so I think the going back to the person, um, you know, not approaching this from a scholarly place, approaching this from kind of like the practical place. I mean, really, I I practically have learned music theory not so much so that I could be a better performer or player of an instrument, but so that I could write more interesting compositions, you know, and doing so doing so on a keyboard, like programming, right? I mean, I'm uh I mean, I know you're not getting on your show a lot into like topics of MIDI and quantizing and you know, things like that in in in digital audio, right? But um, but but so so I came to that space really with theory because I realized, oh, I'm writing things that are pretty weak sauce, you know, like they're they're not actually like I actually cannot express myself enough without knowing more. Yeah. And so it's like I got to a so that the the person who said, Hey, I'm doing I do it by ear, I'm like, I actually was kind of doing the same. And I would say, what note are they playing? And I'm like, oh, I can replicate that, right? And so, um sure, and and in some cases I could uh I could fumble my way into something cool. To me, it's the difference, and and perhaps I know there are unquestionably people in the world who who can do it by ear and can do so elegantly by ear, but I'm not one of them. And so for me, what that ended up looking like was at best, I stumbled on something cool, and at worst, I got stuck. And so for me personally, I realized like in order for me not to get stuck, I need to learn a little bit more about the craft of of how you know I'm using this chord progression. What what where could I take it? Um, I might fumble my way onto a cool opportunity or place to go next, but also like let me think about that. What notes are in this? And maybe I want to change the key, and um, you know, what what does the seventh in the scale potentially get me if I were to move to that note? And it it helps you experiment, I think, in a way that opens doors. Um at least coming at it from the angle that I've came at it. So yeah, anyway, I guess that's that's kind of my hot take.

SPEAKER_02: 26:53

Yeah, that's really good. That that's actually a really good take. Um, I like that. So, as you know, our listeners can tell, one of your main focuses now is songwriting, which you know we love. People are very interested in that. And even though, you know, I'm a songwriter, but I don't really consider myself like I'm not a superior songwriter. Like, I read it stuff here and there, um, but not as much anymore. So I would say you're definitely a bit more prolific than me these days, which is great. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 27:25

Or or I mean, I actually I was just gonna respond to your comment about the prolific. I mean, yeah, sure. To to me, yeah, go ahead. To to me, uh uh and I've heard some of your songs, and you are a great songwriter. Um, right. And so but but prolific is the operative word because for me it's become it's become a real outlet, you know. It's like, and I have ideas just kicking. I take notes of obsessively on on lyrical ideas, you know. Um I I think that's one of the really cool parts about living in the day and age that we live in. It's like I can capture any idea. You know, idea capture is so easy.

SPEAKER_02: 28:04

Um having technology is fun these days.

SPEAKER_00: 28:08

It's insane. I mean, just having an iPhone, it's insane. If you I mean, I'm sure I know lots of different phone companies work this way, but having garage band in my pocket to tap out a melody on a keyboard, having the ability to record myself while I'm driving, if I have like an idea, I you I mean, one day my family is going to dig through the archive of my ridiculous snippets of audio and like notes, and they're gonna make this this guy was insane. But um, prolific is probably the right word because uh I kind of obsessively use my energy to pull those into like reasonably coherent things. I I just for some reason it has been like a great kick, and uh in like the post-pandemic world, it's just really filled my cup in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_02: 28:52

Yeah, and that's great. And I think you know, you're definitely not alone. I think um, especially between the advancement of technology as you were speaking of, and also the times like COVID in 2020, and the fact that really people had to really were forced to make a jump through technology, and I think also because people were, you know, had the ultimate cabin fever at that time that people were going into the hole using technology to, you know, hey, let's go record some music, you know, let me go play some music, record it, let's do some experimenting, we've had the time, there's no work today, yeah, things like that. Um, even if you did have work that day, but you know what I'm saying, like things were different. So, based on your answer, um, it sounds like to me, you feel like with music theory that if you learn by ear, which is great, because we know ear is our number one asset, but if you learn by ear, you at some point will almost inevitably hit some form of a ceiling or a wall of understanding.

SPEAKER_00: 29:57

I think so.

SPEAKER_02: 29:57

Where you need to I th I would Agree, and that's why I wanted to hit on this. So basically, your advice for people out there is you know, if you get so far with your ear and you're hitting walls and ceilings, you know, and let's say you hated music theory. Well, guess what? It might be your next adventure. You just have to find a way to ease into it. You might find you love it more than you think, right?

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

I think so, man. And I and I, you know, the way I would uh like maybe the metaphor or the example I would use is is about singing. And I am not a great singer. Um, I enjoy singing. Me neither. I enjoy singing. Um, I'm I'm not a great singer. You are someone though who um knows how to harmonize and hit a note, and I really can't. So my ear has a limitation in that way, and that's a great, I think, tie back to the question from your student. Like, my ear could only get me so far. I really had to sit down in front of a keyboard and start listening for intervals, and and you know, and like you used in an earlier podcast talking about uh, you know, pop culture examples, like for for me, Jaws was the the great example, or Star Wars, you know, some of those where I'm like, ah yes, now I can now I can always hear it and I can almost sing it. So I think without that like focus on the theory and the rigor behind it, I don't think I would have been able to get past some of the limitations of my own ear.

SPEAKER_02: 31:22

Thank you for tuning in to this music theory interview between me and my good friend Zlee. Do check the description of this podcast to find links to some of his music for you to enjoy. And this is only part one of a two-part series of interviewing Zlee, so do stay tuned for the second half of this interview next week. I'm gonna leave you with one of his tracks that's called Entertaining Ideas. I do hope you enjoy it. And until next week, I will look forward to continuing this music theory education with all of you. Have a beautifully musical week, everybody. See you next week.

SPEAKER_01: 32:40

Cause I need it, and I'm going down without feeding. Gotta have my fit when I'm seeing bleeding. Got something I can say, but I don't get it. Haven't I seen you before?

unknown: 33:02

Looks like you up and down below. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:17

Yeah, I was good at it. Context, killing life with a scientist reflex. It's appropriate. Yeah, I bring all the perspective. Steady up and watch your codes reflecting. I have future ghosts. Got me laid down on the floor.

unknown: 33:40

I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01: 33:42

Might as well happen you met the moment that I knew that.