The Harmonious Blacksmith: A Music Theory Exploration
The Harmonious Blacksmith: A Music Theory Exploration is a podcast dedicated to unraveling the complexities of music theory, designed for music theorists, musicians, educators, and students alike. Whether you're a seasoned composer, an aspiring music student, or a music historian, this podcast provides insightful discussions, expert interviews, and deep dives into the principles that shape Western classical and contemporary music.
Each episode explores key topics such as scales, chords, chord progressions, melody, harmony, triads, the circle of fifths, chord inversions, I, IV, V progressions, musical improvisation, bass lines, greek modes, keys, key changes, modality, and the evolution of musical structures throughout history. With an emphasis on both theoretical concepts and practical applications, The Harmonious Blacksmith bridges the gap between academic rigor and real-world music practice, making it an invaluable resource for those looking to deepen their understanding of how music works.
Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned pro, The Harmonious Blacksmith provides a rich, engaging exploration of the art and science of music theory, all while fostering a deeper appreciation for the beauty of sound and structure.
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The Harmonious Blacksmith: A Music Theory Exploration
Ep. 25 : Music-Theory-Interviews: ZLEE(Part 2)
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The Continuation of an interview with a Fabulous Composer/SongWriter and Music Theory Lover : ZLEE
LINKTREE to ZLEE Tracks :
We Discuss The importance of Music Theory, The advantages and pitfalls, and we even get into topics like concerts, live music, key changes, the state of the music industry, the composition process, the pros and cons of music theory for creativity purposes, and much more!
Linear Music Theory Learning For Everyone!
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Harmonious Blacksmith. This is episode 25 of my series, and it is part two of a very important interview with my good friend Zlee. I hope you enjoyed part one last time, and you will certainly enjoy part two. Without further ado, let's have a conversation with Zlee. Enjoy. So my next question to you would be one that might not be expected, which is do you feel that music theory has limited your creativity? And if so, did you have to find a way to push past that? Like, in other words, once you had the knowledge, does it change the way you think about music forever? Like you can't go back. Does it limit your creativity in any way? You can kind of comment that on that however you want to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't I wouldn't say that it's limited my creativity in general. And I think that's because I came to it from a place of creative hunger. Like I got, but that's and I'm not saying that's the right way. Uh I just think that's one reason for me that um like I I needed I needed it to in order to express myself further.
SPEAKER_03Um and it's not like so it was basically the exact opposite.
SPEAKER_00Kind of kind of the exact opposite. But one thing that I have found that's um that does happen sometimes is that I will find a concept that I get excited about and a little obsessed with, and I like try to make something work using it. And I think key changes are real, a really good and simple example of that. Like, oh, I you know, I I hear people say, I want to ask right, I want there to be a key change in this song, you know. Like that's something people strive for. And I recently saw a chart that was like key changes uh in songs like going back over the last 50 years, like the the vast majority of songs on the radio had a key change in it, and now that's not true anymore. Um, and so I think that was an example of one, right? I don't know why that's true, or I mean, I guess it's just fallen out of favor or something, or why why do you think so?
SPEAKER_03Honestly, I really think it's because of the music industry itself, the entertainment industry. Everything has to be simplified and simplified and simplified. Basically, they're trying to shorten things, make them more vanilla, make them simple, and just kind of reproduce what worked in the past. Yeah, that's all they're trying to do. And a key change is something that is unexpected that takes the ear to another place. So the more time that's gone by, they don't want to do that. They don't it's deemed as it's kind of weird in their mind.
SPEAKER_00Like it's not as as palatable or something, yeah. You know, because coming to it through a creative space was how I got to theory. Um, I it really fuels me more so than uh it drains me. So so theory really opens doors for my creativity rather than the other way around.
SPEAKER_03That's wonderful.
SPEAKER_00But I think that like I I do get obsessed at times with like in trying to incorporate a musically interesting concept, right? Um, saying like, oh, I want to change the key in this song, like just just because I want to try it. Um, and and that's often when I want when I find myself like it's almost like I'm trying to put the square peg in the round hole a little bit. Like, yeah, that's cool, but it's uh I'm just uh what's the saying? If everything is uh if you treat every uh every tool like a hammer, then everything is a nail. I I can't remember, but yeah, you know, it's like I'm something like that. I'm solving, I'm not solving the right problem, right? And so that to me is when theory isn't very useful, is like I'm just trying to do it for the sake of doing it. So that to me is uh the only time I think that it would limit my creativity. So I guess I guess I guess my advice would be like use it when it's useful, you know. It's about uh how can it serve what you're doing ultimately. That's the whole value of music theory, I think, to me.
SPEAKER_03I love that. Yeah, that's great. And I I do think there is some value, especially when you're first learning music theory. Kind of, you know, you use the the tool metaphor, you know. Well, if you have a toolbox for the first time and you don't know what anything does, at some point you're gonna pull it all out and you're gonna bang around and figure out what all of it does. And I think that's kind of what you're talking about. I think there's value in that, the idea that you use the example of a key change, which I like because, you know, you know, what does a key change do in music? It it takes you, it takes your adventure to a place you didn't expect. Yeah, that's what a key change does.
SPEAKER_00And I think coming coming to a song and saying, oh, well, I should use a key change so that I can accomplish that, like maybe there's other ways to accomplish that. And that's when I think it would uh it I wouldn't say it's limited my creativity. I said I think my uh my partial um knowledge of music theory often is more of what limits my creativity because the the key change in that moment wouldn't be the only tool in my toolbox to gain something uh unexpected or new or different from a song. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's really good. So music theory for the sake of music theory or just for the sake of exercise is one thing, but when you really want to put it into your passion, what you're doing with your songwriting or your performing, that should hopefully be a whole different realm.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I love that's basically what you're saying. Totally.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so having given all that great advice that you just gave to people out there that might be looking to use some music theory going forward in the future, what would you say would be the most important concept in music theory in the beginning?
SPEAKER_00Oh man, that's a hard one. In the beginning.
SPEAKER_03Um like in other words, what what is what is the gateway to get off and running with music theory? Like, I think a lot of it, the intimidation is like it's kind of its own language and world, it's its own conceptual world. And I think a lot of people are intimidated by the fact that it's all this stuff and they just don't know how to start the journey.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I think uh general like literacy of of the of scales and understanding uh the language is really hard. And that's usually I think where the chapter one of any theory book is is like hey, you need to understand right, like you need to understand scales and sharps and flats, and so like it makes sense to uh to get into that that way. Like it's it's obviously the building block that things get built on top of. Um, but I think to me, and I and I and like adult education and is uh is kind of my job. I do it in a corporate setting, but like one of the things I think of is um what is gonna grab you? What's the sticky thing? And I I think one of the real sticky concepts for someone who doesn't know anything about theory and and and you know, you want them to you want to help them understand how it's like meaningful, kind of going back to the whole intervals thing, right? Like, you know, bana, right? And like helping them understand, like, hey, that's literally uh, you know, that that that uh that interval right there means something, and it means something else when you hear it in the context of your favorite science fiction movie, right? And so um I I think that to me is uh a good one, it's a good starting place. It may not be like the most uh effective starting place um for the education side of things, but I think that like that's one to me that's real grabby. It it gets people's attention.
SPEAKER_03I like that. So basically, my friend Zlee here, he's telling you scales are the building blocks, and that will of course um be in accordance with everything I've been talking about in my podcast. So that's probably good. It's probably good that that we agree on that. And um, the next thing for you, which I really love, is that you mentioned the, you know, this is the second time you've mentioned intervals, which is great. So, again, people out there, um, ear training is so important. I will have more episodes on ear training coming up, by the way. I've done a couple if you want to go back and check them out, but um I will have more in the near future because it is really that important. And again, I'll remind you I didn't have the greatest ear or the natural ear. I did have to go through the ear training, and I went through it with much passion and um, you know, just kind of awe of the whole thing, and I really just humbled myself and took it all in. And I I it helped me take my musicianship to a level that I never dreamed of. And I always want to remind people that like I'm playing music now that I thought was impossible before. And a lot of that is yes, hard work and technique, and I am a trained musician, but at the same time, putting the head space to it, the music theory and the concepts and things really allowed me to take things to a really high level.
SPEAKER_00I love what you just said, Kevin. Okay, if I can add to that real quick, I was just gonna say that like I love I love the way you just frame that, and that's that like this world of of music and music theory is it's like an absolute um lifetime of information and places to explore. Like I I just think it's there's uh so many ways to constantly be improving and thinking and learning that um even though it's just these seven or eight notes, um, you know, like it's it there is so much uh if you continue to pour yourself into it, right? Like it it it gives back. It's absolutely it's one of those what you uh you get what you give um in terms of time spent on theory. That's right.
SPEAKER_03All right, Mr. Zlee, you've given us a lot of good stuff so far. My next question to you would be how do you use music theory to intentionally evoke a certain emotion in a composition or even a performance?
SPEAKER_00Oh man. So I have released three different albums at this point. I'm actually about to to to roll out a fourth one, um, and they're all kind of different.
SPEAKER_04There you go. So you are prolific. I am prolific.
SPEAKER_00I am if nothing else, I am generating a lot of content over here. But um Yes, you are. But yeah, the the first two albums I I really did like uh it's very singer-songwriter-y. And the third one um is called It Was Never What You Thought, and that one is uh very, very uh electronically produced. Like there's actually only one song that has any guitar on it at all for the most part. Um it's uh it's done on a keyboard in in my office, you know. And so um uh so I think it was only when I really sat down in in front of a piano keyboard for me personally, because I don't think I have enough guitar chops to really make it happen. And and through the very like slow and thoughtful process of composing on my computer, was I able to kind of bring enough um theory into the to the process to really get a real dynamic uh sort of palette. Um, and so for example, there's there's one song on there uh that I I had a lot of fun making. It's called Entertaining Ideas, and that's literally what I was doing. And so speaking of theory, right? It was like a lot of these sort of um learnings bouncing around in my head and and trying to uh kind of bring them to life. Uh, but but it's through composed, and I'm not sure if that's language that you would use, Kevin. I mean, the way I understand that word meaning that the sections of the song really don't repeat, so it kind of goes from the A section to the B to the C to the D. Is that how you would describe it?
SPEAKER_04Yep, that is exactly what through composed is.
SPEAKER_00Yep. It's like a G sharp minor, C sharp minor, E major, F sharp major, and A major. So I think that G sharp minor should have been diminished, but I need to go back and listen to more harmonious blacksmith to keep myself straight. Anyway, the count of Yeah, that's for sure. No, you're doing pretty good.
SPEAKER_03I mean, it sounds like mostly A, but honestly, it could just be, I mean, it sounds like a mode of A. And that's fine.
SPEAKER_00And it might maybe that G sharp minor is a borrowed chord or something, but yeah, it in my mind it's like a seven, three, five, six, one. Uh, you know, um, but in a basically. In A. Yeah. Um, so starting on a seven's pretty weird. Um, but then the rhythm of it is this, it's like uh there's a count to it that's uh one, two, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, five, six, right, and and it repeats in this really weird way, but I'm playing it in a four, four time signatures. It was this really specific tension that it was holding. And I think starting on the seven, like polyrhythms. Yeah, weird polyrhythms and weird tensions from it starting on the seven. So, like, you know, you asked about emo uh evoking emotion. I I liked it, I wanted it to feel uh like it was gonna move somewhere, and so that's one where I really sat down and said, okay, well, if I'm ending on the one, that's a major, and how can I shift that into this this bass line? And I'm I'm I'm doing a lot rhythmically to kind of get it to a place. So that's one if I uh if I were to say, hey, go listen to some Zli and and uh listen to something kind of interesting. That one does a lot to like move, it changes time signatures. I probably changes keys a time or two. It's I'm not doing something always super intentional. I think there's this little dance that we do when we start to learn about theory and and learn the academics of a particular subject where like some of it is purposeful and some of it is happy accidents. And so this this was a good one where I was good, I was doing a little bit of both, a little bit of happy accidents, and then I'd get to a place I'm like, well, what could I do here? And I had just enough theory in my pocket to kind of drive it to that next point. But yeah, so I'd uh uh hopefully your listeners will check out that song. That's one that's uh kind of fun for for me to have played with.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. I will definitely have them check that out. And I um I I want to comment on that because I do always tell students of mine all the time, I'm like, no matter how much conceptual stuff or technique or how much you're reading about or watching or listening to, at some point you have to just treat your instrument like you're a kid with a toy, yeah. And you kind of and that's what you're talking about about happy accidents. I like the way you put that because happy accidents happen when you treat your instrument like a toy, but the beauty of what you're talking about is you really benefit the most from bringing as much to the table as possible, I would think. In other words, I think there's a lot of people out there that that have an idea that you're gonna ruin the purity of your music if you overthink it with music theory. I think there's a lot of people out there that that subscribe to that and believe that that's true, and that's why uh this conversation is really important to me and to people that are listening, because um I just I personally, and it sounds like you're in accordance, which is like we disagree with that wholeheartedly. I I have fully integrated music theory into what I've done, and it has it has only just made my musicianship and my you know music career go through the roof. I mean, it's only done wonderful things. I mean, this is all really important to people who are developing in music and know of music theory and are deciding whether it's important to them or not. I can give a quick anecdote for me. I mean, yes, I've been a pro professional musician for a while, and I'm really kind of fading into more of just a music educator these days, but I still want to be able to go to a concert and turn off the teacher hat, turn off the music theory analysis hatally, and be able to just close my eyes and enjoy music, right? So, can you give our listeners any insight into how that works for you? Like when you are like, okay, I'm I'm using, I need to pull out my music theory toolbox for this, it's important. And then other times when you might say, you know what, let's let's put that box down for now and just kind of close our eyes and be free. Can you give us some words on that?
SPEAKER_00I love that. And um, you know, I go to a lot of concerts, I'm sure a lot of uh you guys listening do, and I'm uh concerts are one of the big ways that I enjoy music. I I love live music. Um I've got just a wall of concert posters around me. Uh super excited to go see David Byrne in concert here in about two months in in Atlanta. So I just I love, love live music. And um, and David Byrne's maybe a really good example of this, right? So um, you know, he as a performer is is energy and it's and it's uh he he puts on a spectacle and he that's always been part of his his performance, his performance art, and it's in enjoyable and it's interesting and it's thought-provoking, and it's meant to be this sort of a little bit jarring, you know. Um, and is he doing musically complicated things? Not always, you know, right? Sometimes, right, sometimes really simple stuff. Um, now that's where I say to myself, you know, like I like to show up and enjoy the vibes, you know. I really enjoy the the energy of a musician like that. There's a bunch I listen to a lot a lot of indie rock type stuff, and uh as y'all as y'all can probably tell from listening to my music, but that's that's kind of um part of the enjoyment for me is just the just the feelings. And um now there comes to a point though when I um hear something, it's usually that for me, where I will personally hear something and I'll say, ah, that was really interesting. Like that was an interesting change, that was an interesting rhythm. Um they did they, you know, resolve to the one? I don't I don't think they resolved that, or did they change keys, you know, and you and you feel it, and then you start thinking about it. That to me is is usually how I come to it. Now, that's probably because I listen to a lot of rock music, you know, and like that's my MO. I think if you are uh sure, you know, uh more of a classical listener or something like that, like you you might have a tendency to come uh and listen to those compositions and performances through more of the ear of that. I I don't know. I mean you can speak to that better than me, but for me, it's uh I like to I activate the theory in my brain when I hear something that is uh that needs me to. And that's why I think the having that uh just enough theory in my pocket now allows me to like enjoy music better. Um, so one of the bands that uh you and I listened to, you know, growing up was the band Fish, you know, and we really enjoyed like musically what those guys do. And um, but there were other times when they were just just fun, you know, and it's like they're not doing anything big.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_00But I love now being able to listen to some of their stuff, for example, or or other bands that have instrumentally robust capabilities, jazz musicians and stuff like that. And and uh it's not just that it creates the vibe, but you can hear why they created the vibe and how they created the vibe. And so that's where to me there's a real nice balance between uh experiencing music as just someone who's there bobbing your head, but also the kind of intellectual exercise of it. Uh, like it's double the enjoyment if you if you know enough theory to kind of know what they're doing. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03Awesome. Wow, yeah, that was that was a fantastic response. I really yeah, and I mean people I think have varying degrees of that, and that's why I'm always curious to ask individuals about it. Um because I think uh, you know, there's certain people out there that you know just would consider themselves overthinkers or OCD thinkers, you know. I am about a lot of stuff, admittedly, but I always knew that I wanted, you know, when I was a music theory student, you know, I might have been thinking about it more live, but I think as I got older, you know, you separate the two things. But I'm really interested in what you were saying earlier about like the theory mind activates when you hear something that's interesting or unique, something that you're curious about how it came to be, about how they were able to evoke an emotion this way or that, or or make music go in a certain direction, kind of like a roller coaster ride going up and down hills through a loop or something, and and you you kind of just want to know how that's constructed and how it's put together. And so really it becomes a curiosity, right? And then let's say something like that happens at a concert, you go home and explore it, and then all of a sudden you have hopefully another little sharpened tool in your body.
SPEAKER_00Well, hey, I love the way you said that. Uh, and something just popped in my head. It's like the more you spend time on this, um, you know, I think people would assume, and maybe this is just my take, right? Uh, you know, my my hot take on music theory is I don't always feel like I've got more answers um the more I study or learn about theory. But what I do usually have are better questions, you know. Um and and like it helps me really enjoy music. So I'll experience something like you said in a concert and be like, why did why was that so cool? And then I'll go back and you know, the internet can give you anything now, and I'll hey what what happens at the three-minute mark in this song? And you know, Chat GPT can suddenly tell me, oh well, they they went from this to this to this to this. And I'm like, aha, now I understand. So uh so I know that they accomplished it by doing something. I kind of can't quite put my and that's just where I am in my own. Yeah, I hope that in another 10 or 20 years from now I can hear it and I can actually name it rather than having to go Google it. But to me, knowing enough about theory helps me understand like what what to like go look for, like, and then that I I translate that directly into my own composition, you know, it's like, oh well, that was a really cool effect. I wonder how I could use something like that.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so out of all the music theory concepts that you have in your toolbox now, is there a particular scale, chord progression, mode, or just any anything like that that you came across along the way that made you feel especially connected to it emotionally or maybe nostalgic in a way? Maybe it it evoked something from childhood or just connected to you with some important life experience, right? So we're talking about is there a music theory concept? Is there a song? Is there something you heard that really did that to you?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I mean, there are so many. Uh you know, it's funny when I think about uh like the emotional connection of music, I've got a lot of song examples, but I I love the way you asked that, which was like, is there a particular scale or mode? Um and I'm like, do people have favorite modes? But I guess some people do have favorite modes, huh?
SPEAKER_03They kind of do. I mean, I I find that some songwriters will favor certain modes here and there. Um, you know, and I may be able to give some examples later, but uh Well, I think for me, yeah, no go.
SPEAKER_00No, I was just gonna say, I think, I mean, and I'm that that does make sense. I think for me, uh, as far as like writing and composing goes, it's usually uh keys that my voice sounds the best in, you know, and and that one makes I think a lot of sense. So if if uh any of you guys are out here. Hence the oh go ahead.
SPEAKER_03Hence getting the capo as well. Oh, exactly. Slap the capo on, it helps you find your vocal round. Absolutely. So we were talk right, we were talking about like the function of the capo earlier, because you know, my listeners know that I'm a guitar player and I play all my audio examples on guitar. Um, so most of you probably know, but yeah, capo not only changes the key, but the whole reason to do that most of the time is for vocals. Most of the time it is for vocals. Well, absolutely makes a lot of sense.
SPEAKER_00And it's super fun as uh, especially as like a new guitar player. And again, uh getting a capo may be like the worst advice I could ever give someone. I don't know, but uh it really is a fun way just to be like, oh, I'm doing something different, and oh, my voice sounds different when I sing it over this. So there's a lot of learning, I think, that happens there. Um, you know, to answer your question about like I I wouldn't say that I necessarily have like a mode in my mind or a scale or chord progression in my mind. I mean, I did I don't know if I mentioned this, but I like one that I really am kind of I'm interested in why I feel this way when I hear it are songs, and David Byrne's a great example, if I didn't already say this, where he writes a lot of songs that are in all major chords. Um, so like he might have an A, C, G, and E major all in the like that may be the whole song. What why do I like that, Kevin? Why why is that appealing to my ear?
SPEAKER_03Right. So, in other words, you ask the question right away, like, okay, these chords don't necessarily exist together in a key like we would normally know in music theory, but why is it that we still like the way they sound and that it's interesting? So you kind of go down a rabbit hole with that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. What what do you call it whenever you have a bunch of chords that are all in major, I mean, like I said, A, C, G, and E. I mean, I don't even know what that even means to you. I'm putting you on the spot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, that's fine. I mean, basically in that situation, usually what it is is that they're using what we would call borrowed chords from the either the parallel minor or a relative key or a closely related key. So, in other words, you're pulling in chords that weren't necessarily in the key, but you might have one little note chromatically altered in that chord. Yes. Um, to make because as you know, the difference between major and minor is just a half-step difference in the middle note of the triad. So you can just alter that one middle note by a half step, and all of a sudden you have a major chord, and it's kind of just a chromatic move. It's kind of a borrow chord move.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um spoken like spoken like the blacksmith. I mean, only that was a real that was that was a real harmonious blacksmith answer. So thank you for that. Um I think we try and I'm I'm going a little bit full circle in this, but I think I think for me, rather than saying musically or or uh tonally, there is a a key of music or anything like that that I really enjoy, I would say, and this is probably coming uh as a drummer, um, it's a more rhythmic thing for me. I really, really enjoy um unique rhythms and songs.
SPEAKER_03All right, Mr. Zlee. That was a wonderful interview. I really enjoyed it, and I really think my listeners are gonna enjoy it and got a lot out of it. Thank you so much for the time today, my friend. Absolutely. I'm just so glad you came on the program. And look, let's go ahead and send them off with one of your fabulous compositions. Go ahead and tell them what you would like them to hear and how they can find it.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Well, thanks, Kevin. I really appreciate the chance to to uh join the conversation. So, so yeah, thank you all for listening. Um, uh, you can find me by searching Z-L-E-E. Usually in all caps works best in any of your favorite favorite streaming prep platforms or on YouTube, and I think Kevy's gonna drop some links uh out there for us, but um this song. Is off of my most recent album, It Was Never What You Thought. So thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_03Again, y'all, enjoy this tune by Zlee, and thanks again for listening to the Harmonious Blacksmith. And as always, I look forward to continuing this music theory exploration with all of you. Enjoy Zlee, and we will see you on the next go around.
SPEAKER_01I go up in the unapproachable light of the sun. It's all around me. It's all around me. The ridiculousness of the ride that we all are on. Oh yeah, it's all I see. It's all that I can see. I had a feeling today. Past each of these easy ways. It's gonna be okay. Oh, it's all okay. Dismissed it from my mind, a pleasure from another time. Oh, the world has changed. Yeah, the world has changed. I got these late stage premonitions of elks and model feels. Seeking relevancy, I guess it's bigger than me. I guess nothing. I do just treat me trauma.